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Author Topic: Minimizing damage in test fired .223 rem bullets  (Read 24542 times)

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Offline Jamie Becker

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Re: Minimizing damage in test fired .223 rem bullets
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2006, 09:00:13 AM »
Instead of phone books...I have "outdated" vest, donated by a local PD, stacked at the back of my cotton box.
Jamie Becker
AFTE Treasurer 2002-2005
2008, 2012 & 2013 TX State Lady Champion (Trap), 2014 Runner-Up

Offline Ron Nichols

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Re: Minimizing damage in test fired .223 rem bullets
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2006, 10:45:23 AM »
Armor Forensics sells a recovery tube made from steel and filled with shredded kevlar. I was first introduced to it at Oakland and we purchased one here at ATF. It really is very effective at stopping 223 and others within a reasonable distance and in excellent condition.
Ron Nichols
Firearms and Toolmark Examiner
Bureau of ATF
Walnut Creek, CA 94598

Offline Greg Klees

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Re: Minimizing damage in test fired .223 rem bullets
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2006, 01:44:16 AM »
If you are looking for something to research that is cheap and non-cotton, check-out my article directly related to your inquiry in AFTE Journal, Vol. 30, #2, 1998, Pp. 280-282.

-INGTLI

 
Greg Klees

Offline Nat Pearlson

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Re: Minimizing damage in test fired .223 rem bullets
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2006, 09:09:11 AM »
Up here in northern Minnesota I see quite a variety of firearms that don’t make themselves amenable to firing into water.  I just wanted to make a comment regarding optimizing results from a cotton box.  I have had great success obtaining test fired bullets covering a wide range of velocities and energies, all in excellent condition, in my cotton box (including lead and polymer tipped).  One key is packing the cotton as tightly as possible.  Loosely packed cotton will result in “burnishing” or rub marks on the exterior of the bullets.  As mentioned, paper dividers save time in bullet recovery.  Also, if you are using rolled cotton batting, you need to stagger the shots and then reposition the batting after 3 or 4 shots so you don’t get bullets tracking down holes, following the path of least resistance and slamming into previous test bullets.

I also believe that tightly packed cotton reduces the potential to have a fire start in the cotton box.  I have never seen this but I have heard stories.  This could be an urban legend, but it seems that air space in loose cotton would promote this (maybe back the muzzle off a few more inches too).

Our lab has two very nice 8 foot stainless steel boxes that were manufactured based on our specifications for about $1500.  They were made for us by W.J. Haas Manufacturing in St. Paul (Mark Haas – 651-224-8552).  Prior to these boxes we got by with a wooden box that was very inexpensive and worked very well.  The only problem is the occasional round sneaking down the side and exiting the trap.

Offline Charlie DeArmond

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Re: Minimizing damage in test fired .223 rem bullets
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2012, 05:04:34 PM »
Have found high power BTSPs fired into snow that appeared perfectly decelerated. Don't know how dependent the effect is upon type and condition or even thickness of snow, but it you're up north in the winter and need to do this in a pinch real fast it might be worth a try. A common metal detector should aid in recovery. Have never tried this. Just observed the effect.

Offline Jerry Petillo

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Re: Minimizing damage in test fired .223 rem bullets
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2012, 05:33:30 PM »
Thanks Charlie
Gerard Petillo
Criminalist
Direct-646-996-4301
SKYPE: gapny1
     8)

Offline Greg Scala

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Re: Minimizing damage in test fired .223 rem bullets
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2012, 10:35:34 AM »
The cheapest solution I can think of is, that is if you already have a water tank, is to use Federal "Tactical" 223 ammo.  This stuff is designed to be fired through windshields and not fragment too much.  It really holds up well fired into water.

Offline Tori Kujala

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Re: Minimizing damage in test fired .223 rem bullets
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2012, 08:27:03 AM »
Dang Bob, I'm just getting used to your other invention...the discount water tank.   :-0

Tk
Tori Kujala
Senior Forensic Scientist
Firearms & Toolmark Unit
Fort Worth PD Crime Laboratory
3616 East Lancaster Avenue
Fort Worth, TX  76103
817-392-4504

Offline DYesucevitz

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Re: Minimizing damage in test fired .223 rem bullets
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2012, 08:46:19 PM »
Hi everyone,
  My name is Derek, I recently made a post about possible ideas of a graduate school forensics thesis. I have had a course in Pattern Evidence/firearms/toolmark analysis and I also collect and regularly shoot. I came across this interesting discussion and was wondering if this idea of a "cotton box" could somehow become a thesis topic/project?

If so, does anyone have any information/background that I could look in to? Thank you all very much.

~Derek

Offline Charles Clow

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Re: Minimizing damage in test fired .223 rem bullets
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2012, 09:30:33 PM »
Unfortunetely, I would say no because the cotton box has been a standard in the field for about as long as the field has been around. We already know that it works.

CMC
The views expressed here are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views of Tarrant County. - Charles M. Clow

Offline winterh

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Re: Minimizing damage in test fired .223 rem bullets
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2012, 05:10:12 PM »
Something I have never attempted, but wanted to.
Wind tunnels used in aircraft development can generate velosities in the supersonic range. Has anyone thought of constructing a scaled down wind tunnel and test firing into the wind? I would assume one could get maximum resistance from the moving air without destroying the projectile. I doubt the bullet would travel more than a few yards before forward motion was overcome, Just a thought !!...HW

Offline Evan Thompson

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Re: Minimizing damage in test fired .223 rem bullets
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2012, 08:07:11 AM »
While at AFTE in Chicago, it was mentioned that at the original Chicago PD Crime Laboratory, there was a small desktop cotton box on wheels that examiners test fired handgun bullets into. (archive photos??)  Supposedly, the energy of the bullet was dissipated by the cotton and forward motion of the box.  If so, maybe this would work as well with high velocity bullets, but on a larger scale. 
Evan Thompson
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Never live a life gray
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Offline Nelson Welch

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Re: Minimizing damage in test fired .223 rem bullets
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2012, 09:15:53 AM »
OK.... although this is outside of the normal work we do in Firearms examinations but based on the posting by "winterh" and Evan Thompson, I would suggest a search on Wikipedia for those that are interested.   
.
I would start with "Ballistics" and this will have links to "Exterior Ballistics", "Interior Ballistics", "Transitional Ballistics" and "Terminal Ballistics".  The "Exterior Ballistics" section is 9 pages long and very good.  It also has links to some freeware that you can download and use.  Notice the mention of Sandia Labs here in Albuquerque.
.
take care.. I prefer to say that I am not a Ballistics Expert.
nelson.  505-771-2878  or cell 505-288-0000
.
ps
I did do a demonstration once for some medical examiners to show them that a person would not be "knocked" backwards by getting shot by a .45-70 wearing a bullet proof vest.  I took a 15 pound piece of railroad tie and shot it with a .357 Magnum ;D .
.
 Prior to shooting it, I measured the coefficient of friction for the railroad tie on the table top and calculated for them that the distance the tie would move would be about 2 inches.  After shooting it.. the measured distance was about 1.75 inches which was close enough for government work.  ;D
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 09:18:18 AM by Nelson Welch »
The truth is the truth; but the truth doesn't always "win".

 

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